http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/-t1.htm Wed, 18 Nov 2009 04:48:19 GMT 10 http://i85.servimg.com/u/f85/12/75/31/47/whitea12.jpg http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/-t1.htm http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/domus-and-rules-t346.htm Friedrich cenobyte wrote:Okay. Here are some nearly definitive answers (which begin with: all of this is being worked on for the final edition): 1) You cannot maintain a Domus unless you live in it. You cannot visit your Domus X times a week to 'strengthen' it; but it is intended that your Domus is the place you live. If you have a Domus but live elsewhere, the bond gradually deteriorates. 2) Doves don't go to a Fallen first; they go to the Domus, and so if you don't have a Domus, it takes *even ... Rules Questions/Discussion Tue, 10 Nov 2009 21:52:36 GMT http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/domus-and-rules-t346.htm#2830 http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/domus-and-rules-t346.htm http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/termporary-permanent-resources-secular-power-t351.htm cenobyte This has come up a couple of times, so I thought I'd put the answer here. You cannot have more Secular Power than you have Mind Archetypes. You cannot have more Resources in any one area than your highest Archetype (so if your highest Archetype is 4, you cannot have more than 4 Resources in any one area). You can only manage as many Temporary Secular Power and Temporary Resources as half of your permanent Secular Power. I read this to be you can manage as many Temporary Secular Power ... Rules Questions/Discussion Wed, 18 Nov 2009 04:48:19 GMT http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/termporary-permanent-resources-secular-power-t351.htm#2881 http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/termporary-permanent-resources-secular-power-t351.htm http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/investigate-hunt-patrol-t348.htm cenobyte This isn't really a rules discussion, but I've put it here anyway, more for clarification than for anything else. The question came up in an IC Forum, about what you "get" from an Investigation, versus a Hunt, versus a Patrol - which is to say, what actually happens when they are successful. Investigate actions will get you information about the target - who they are, where they're staying, the places they go, the people they talk to...consider yourself the private dick and the ... Rules Questions/Discussion Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:30:53 GMT http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/investigate-hunt-patrol-t348.htm#2850 http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/investigate-hunt-patrol-t348.htm http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/lingering-trauma-t350.htm cenobyte Lingering Trauma - what is it? BRB p. 148 wrote:Lingering Trauma is a special form of near-permanent damage. During character creation, Maturity and certain Vices require you to take Lingering Trauma. Throughout the course of play, situations such as Crucifixion, Torture, Hollow Death, (and other situations or Heinous Acts the Storyguide deems appropriate) can cause Lingering Trauma as well. How do you heal Lingering Trauma? BRB p. 155 wrote:Lingering Trauma can only be healed ... Rules Questions/Discussion Thu, 12 Nov 2009 06:13:19 GMT http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/lingering-trauma-t350.htm#2857 http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/lingering-trauma-t350.htm http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/why-talk-about-rules-t343.htm Friedrich First, I'd like to reiterate what I've said in another post. I really like the non-angry, non-upset discussion about something that obviously is being interpreted in multiple ways. I don't often land up in rules-discussion forum threads like that. Next, I'd like to encourage more people to get involved. I HATE discussing the rules. I know, you'd never believe it. However, for this game I'm making an exception; partially because this is a game to which we only have access to the setting ... Rules Questions/Discussion Sat, 07 Nov 2009 08:37:31 GMT http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/why-talk-about-rules-t343.htm#2806 http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/why-talk-about-rules-t343.htm http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/purchase-of-trauma-slots-t340.htm Malicia Lets say a character has 3 trauma slots in an archetype: 1 surface, 1 severe, and 1 mortal. That corresponds, I believe, to 2 points in the relative reactive stat? Then they go out and get themselves traumatized. Twice. Both the surface and the severe are "full", and they take a symptom for the severe trauma. Now they purchase enough points in said stat to have 5 trauma slots: 2 surface, 2 severe and 1 mortal. What happens to their trauma? Does the severe point move to ... Rules Questions/Discussion Fri, 06 Nov 2009 16:30:06 GMT http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/purchase-of-trauma-slots-t340.htm#2778 http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/purchase-of-trauma-slots-t340.htm http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/overseer-t190.htm Eliel
example: Bigcashiel has 4 SP and 2 overseer. He already has 2 temp spies and 2 temp wealth. Can he use his overseer to go to 4 temp in just wealth or can he only use it to go to 3 in each?]]> Rules Questions/Discussion Fri, 20 Mar 2009 20:17:09 GMT http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/overseer-t190.htm#1672 http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/overseer-t190.htm http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/court-codex-business-t331.htm cenobyte I thought I'd make a quick post about some things that have to do with the Courts. This is more 'common knowledge' stuff, but if your character is newly Reckoned, please ignore it. 1) A King can appoint more then one Rook - usually in cities much bigger than Regina. 2) A King can appoint more than one Knight - this is a risky measure, but it has been done. 3) One King in every Civitas *should* know the Crucifixion Rite. That doesn't mean that both, or either, must know it. 4) A King may ... Rules Questions/Discussion Tue, 27 Oct 2009 00:28:05 GMT http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/court-codex-business-t331.htm#2651 http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/court-codex-business-t331.htm http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/patrol-protect-t315.htm cenobyte I assume from what is stated above since Patrol does have an opposed roll that it can be undertaken. I assume you mean "...it can be undertaken as a Group Action", and the answer is yes, Patrol can be done as a Group Action. I wonder about choosing to Patrol three targets as one "collective". I wonder if that's an issue. I don't *think* it is, since Patrol is an action designed to interrupt another action (the target of the initial action should be inconsequential). ... Rules Questions/Discussion Tue, 13 Oct 2009 19:25:59 GMT http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/patrol-protect-t315.htm#2528 http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/patrol-protect-t315.htm http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/group-actions-and-aids-t297.htm Keth Hey, so since it came up The risk in group actions is pretty clear in the BRB about what happens. But what about an aid action? If the aid action generates risk does it add to the risk of the initial action? Or is the risk only for the one aiding the action? leaving the original action with marks based on success and the person aiding stuck holding the bag? It does not say specifically in the BRB what happens (as far as I found) with 'aid risk' if someone else finds it please ... Rules Questions/Discussion Sat, 12 Sep 2009 21:27:54 GMT http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/group-actions-and-aids-t297.htm#2422 http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/group-actions-and-aids-t297.htm http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/predomination-notes-t305.htm cenobyte This question has come up in the game a couple of times, and I have given my ruling on it before, however, there have been discussions regarding my reasoning. I will let you know my reasoning and thought process in making my decision. The issue: It is not possible to do a Predomination Action as a Group Action. Period. That also means you cannot Aid someone in Predomination actions. ** Reasoning: The rubric and the theory of Predomination as it is described in the BRB do not match up ... Rules Questions/Discussion Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:13:32 GMT http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/predomination-notes-t305.htm#2455 http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/predomination-notes-t305.htm http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/secular-power-secular-potency-t306.htm cenobyte Another thing that is clarified in the new BRB is Secular Power/Secular Potency. The way it is written in the BRB, it sounds like Secular Power is *converted into* Secular Potency. This is not the case. Your Secular Power determines how much Secular Potency you can have. If you have 5 Secular Power, you can get up to the full amount of Secular Potency available (3) if you have one Hellhole/Paradise fully attuned to you. Therefore, a Predomination generates X number of Secular Potency. ... Rules Questions/Discussion Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:17:42 GMT http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/secular-power-secular-potency-t306.htm#2456 http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/secular-power-secular-potency-t306.htm http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/random-basic-questions-about-the-rules-t143.htm Keth Yeah i figured I should maybe start one of these, at least for myself. I occasionally ask usefull questions that other people may like having the answer to.

Maybe its a good idea, maybe not. But it might save time/room, rather then making a new topic for each question.

Edit::Probably should have said rules/setting. but meh...]]> Rules Questions/Discussion Thu, 15 Jan 2009 03:24:30 GMT http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/random-basic-questions-about-the-rules-t143.htm#1073 http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/random-basic-questions-about-the-rules-t143.htm http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/cinematic-points-in-combat-t254.htm Molior I've perused the BRB about this, and I have not found a satisfactory answer. And thus, I state it here. Kingdom Come seems to assume that you never spend a Cinematic Point when opposing another character in a test, as far as I can tell. You can spend a point to turn a test into a Comparable, but you cannot spend a point to undo something someone else has done. I would like to spend Cinematic Points in combat against another person, but it seems to me that this cannot be, because there is no ... Rules Questions/Discussion Mon, 13 Jul 2009 04:35:22 GMT http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/cinematic-points-in-combat-t254.htm#2083 http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/cinematic-points-in-combat-t254.htm http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/rules-of-note-in-combat-t217.htm Keth First thing first. Should your character take their mortal wound and die, then lose the soul challenge for true death. You CAN 'burn' a cinimatic point to onyl hollow death instead. When you burn a point like that it is gone forever. You still have the vice, just no point for it. Second. When someone says (after the initial blow of combat) that they are attacking you, you CAN say "ok well im going to hit you back" you dont have to just sit there and let them miss. This ... Rules Questions/Discussion Mon, 20 Apr 2009 20:57:00 GMT http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/rules-of-note-in-combat-t217.htm#1908 http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/rules-of-note-in-combat-t217.htm http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/clarification-on-rehabilitation-t216.htm cenobyte It has come to my attention that Af, the Archangel of Bitternes and Trauma, was handing out Trauma like little candies last night. Little, bitter candies. In those terms, I'd like to just remind you how Rehabilitation works - the action has been clarified in this latest edit. So. Here it is: to heal Normal Trauma (healing Lingering Trauma is *much* more difficult, and will be dealt with in a separate post, should the need arise), you must take a Rehabilitation action in the downtime. ... Rules Questions/Discussion Mon, 20 Apr 2009 20:09:26 GMT http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/clarification-on-rehabilitation-t216.htm#1907 http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/clarification-on-rehabilitation-t216.htm http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/forum-stuff-t196.htm cenobyte
So.

Don't be too alarmed.

I'm sure you weren't too alarmed. Just wanted to let you know that the change was intentional.]]> Rules Questions/Discussion Wed, 01 Apr 2009 17:26:10 GMT http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/forum-stuff-t196.htm#1743 http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/forum-stuff-t196.htm http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/sovereignty-t193.htm Malicia I would just like to direct everyone, especially those who have are might end up with court positions, to page 261 in the book. If you don't have a book, borrow a friend's. There are powers outlined here that haven't been mentioned anywhere on the forums or during discussions that I'm aware of, but are really pretty neat. Each court position has at least two powers, one of which they can use in any given month. You should probably all be familiar with these abilities. Rules Questions/Discussion Sun, 29 Mar 2009 22:18:07 GMT http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/sovereignty-t193.htm#1728 http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/sovereignty-t193.htm http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/opposed-downtime-actions-and-risk-t188.htm Eliel So, in my first read-through of the new booklet, I was sure I read that cautious and reckless actions had an effect on the the opposed roll on opposed actions (in addition to the initial effort roll). However, when re-reading the book again I can't for the life of me find where it says that. Does anyone know where this is mentioned in the rules or am I just remembering incorrectly? Rules Questions/Discussion Sun, 15 Mar 2009 19:54:01 GMT http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/opposed-downtime-actions-and-risk-t188.htm#1627 http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/opposed-downtime-actions-and-risk-t188.htm http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/humans-vs-fallen-t185.htm Keth Now.. on a point of curiosity and considering I have heard several things about it from different people. a) what is a typical humans stats? ... i realize this sounds like trying to bend rules or cheat, thats not my intent. Im wondering on a point of comparison, on average where does a human sit in this game? Average human =/= thugs b) And as an adjustment to the first question. Statistically.. what happens to a fallen while being crucified? do they return to the average human stats? ... Rules Questions/Discussion Tue, 10 Mar 2009 05:29:39 GMT http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/humans-vs-fallen-t185.htm#1575 http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/humans-vs-fallen-t185.htm http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/rule-book-t186.htm cenobyte
The Trauma section is not up to snuff. I will replace the sections when further edits are complete, hopefully later this week.]]> Rules Questions/Discussion Wed, 11 Mar 2009 00:23:34 GMT http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/rule-book-t186.htm#1585 http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/rule-book-t186.htm http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/restraints-t163.htm Eliel My unjderstanding is that supernatural creatures heal physical wounds very quickly. If a character has been mortally wounded, but for dramatic purposes it is better not to kill them, how easy is it to "tie them up". The downtime death thread got me thinking about a number of scenes. With Oliver's capture and death it was more narration than challenges so I didn't worry too much, but if the player wanted his character to escape, how easy would it have been to just bust the chains ... Rules Questions/Discussion Wed, 04 Feb 2009 17:05:48 GMT http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/restraints-t163.htm#1323 http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/restraints-t163.htm http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/trauma-lingering-trauma-setbacks-t179.htm cenobyte
What was once known as "Setbacks" is now known as "Lingering Trauma".

The mechanics are the same.

This was to bring it in line with Lingering Wounds.

That is all.]]> Rules Questions/Discussion Wed, 04 Mar 2009 17:59:20 GMT http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/trauma-lingering-trauma-setbacks-t179.htm#1516 http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/trauma-lingering-trauma-setbacks-t179.htm http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/omg-wealth-adds-2-marks-on-acquire-actions-t177.htm Eliel ever use of "omg". It may even be my last use of it. That is the best reflection I could think of for how I literally fell off my couch when reading the new rulebook.

Also Overseer being improved was nice.]]> Rules Questions/Discussion Wed, 04 Mar 2009 05:44:04 GMT http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/omg-wealth-adds-2-marks-on-acquire-actions-t177.htm#1507 http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/omg-wealth-adds-2-marks-on-acquire-actions-t177.htm http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/true-voice-animals-t22.htm Keth Not 100% sure where this question should go, but in a way its rules related so im putting it here. i was told that you can use true voice(or maybe it was some other feature of the fallen) to effectivly ask an animal to help, dogs to guard, birds to deliver a message. Now to the question, is there any limit to what you can ask based on your rank? like can anyone of us ask a dove or other bird to deliver a message? And the last part of the question, more for flavour, where doves ... Rules Questions/Discussion Tue, 05 Aug 2008 04:39:58 GMT http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/true-voice-animals-t22.htm#32 http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/true-voice-animals-t22.htm http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/hunt-endeavour-and-abstract-combat-t161.htm cenobyte Kingdom Come - Trent Yacuk wrote:Hunt Profession: Investigator Difficulty: Opposed Bonus Marks: Thugs (+1) Re-Rolls: Lackey, Wealth You can use this action to find and confront another character or group between games. Usually for a fight, you may also use this to force a meeting for any reason. If there are multiple hunts, then the Hunt with the most Marks achieved by any one individual gets to ‘go first’. The Storyguide and player should determine whether the original hunter would still ... Rules Questions/Discussion Tue, 03 Feb 2009 05:32:10 GMT http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/hunt-endeavour-and-abstract-combat-t161.htm#1311 http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/hunt-endeavour-and-abstract-combat-t161.htm http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/trauma-and-symptoms-t38.htm cenobyte What Trauma Is Trauma is an important and integral part of Kingdom Come. It represents the struggle you have to, more or less keep yourself sane in the face of everything you've been through in this world of clay, the heartrending experience of being cast out of Heaven, and everything else that weighs upon your heart and mind. Trauma is, at its core, 'stress'. It presents a great opportunity for you to exercise your roleplaying muscles, and it makes the whole game that much more interesting. ... Rules Questions/Discussion Mon, 01 Sep 2008 18:14:18 GMT http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/trauma-and-symptoms-t38.htm#87 http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/trauma-and-symptoms-t38.htm http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/devoted-zeal-t37.htm cenobyte Remember that when you're spending Devoted Zeal, you put points into your Archetypes, and that it costs 3x the level you're **going to** to purchase your next Archetype (so, f'rinstance, if you're at level 2 Body and you want to purchase your next Archetype, you must spend 9 Devoted Zeal. Similarly, if you're at level 4 Soul and you want to purchase level 5, it will cost you 15 Devoted Zeal). Every Archetype you purchase gives you three Build Points you can spend anywhere within that Archetype. ... Rules Questions/Discussion Mon, 01 Sep 2008 17:36:39 GMT http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/devoted-zeal-t37.htm#86 http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/devoted-zeal-t37.htm http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/combat-tactical-movement-t112.htm Keth
Simplified. How far can we move to engage, or disengage from an opponent while combat is in progress?

I believe it was mentioned 3 paces at the game at some point but I felt it necessary to check on the accuracy of that.]]> Rules Questions/Discussion Fri, 05 Dec 2008 22:55:20 GMT http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/combat-tactical-movement-t112.htm#655 http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/combat-tactical-movement-t112.htm http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/devotion-was-adversity-zeal-t81.htm cenobyte Devotion is basically your willpower; a method by which you can attempt to do things better than you would normally be able. In a challenge, you can use Devotion to increase your chances of success (it gives you an Inspiration). It can also be used to resist Compelling Techniques that affect your decisions and reactions. You can also use it to make your own Techniques harder to resist or more difficult to notice. Finally, you use Devotion to create Affections. There are Vices and Preeminences ... Rules Questions/Discussion Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:17:45 GMT http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/devotion-was-adversity-zeal-t81.htm#432 http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/devotion-was-adversity-zeal-t81.htm http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/mass-aid-other-t68.htm Keth I know you can dedicate your endeavours to aiding another, but can you do an aid action for a group? like for a brief example. "keth aids the training (in warfare) of everyone who goes to the dojo." Is such a thing possible? and would the aid action have a diminished return based on the number of fallen training? Im assuming it would but i feel i should ask. And then for the last bit. If its not possible to do such a thing with aid actions can it be done with group actions? ... Rules Questions/Discussion Sun, 05 Oct 2008 20:41:28 GMT http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/mass-aid-other-t68.htm#258 http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/mass-aid-other-t68.htm http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/group-aid-t26.htm cenobyte You can engage in a Group Action for any action that draws an Opposed Challenge (Hunt, Investigate, Hinder, etc.). To do so, every character engaged in the Group Action must declare that they are taking a Group Action, and they must (obviously) all declare they are taking the *same* Group Action. Each of your Actions will be dealt with separately by the Storyguide (a separate roll will be made for each individual in the Group). Every Mark generated is pooled and totalled, and the total is ... Rules Questions/Discussion Wed, 06 Aug 2008 04:35:59 GMT http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/group-aid-t26.htm#40 http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/group-aid-t26.htm http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/anatomy-t46.htm Keth just a flavour question. Say keth has to go to the doctor for some reason, bullet wound, being stabbed... etc... would the doctor himself notice anything odd (other then the fact that he is still alive) with keth's anatomy? more to the point, does being a fallen change anything physically within the bodies systems outside of increased strength in some cases? ... somehow i have a feeling i just confused the question more. I do that allot Anyway, good hunting! Rules Questions/Discussion Wed, 03 Sep 2008 05:42:55 GMT http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/anatomy-t46.htm#104 http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/anatomy-t46.htm http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/devoted-zeal-t16.htm cenobyte here.

We will be developing a 'quick guide' for what you can spend Devoted Zeal on in the next few days. Check back.]]> Rules Questions/Discussion Mon, 28 Jul 2008 04:34:27 GMT http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/devoted-zeal-t16.htm#20 http://providence.heavenforum.com/rules-questions-discussion-f12/devoted-zeal-t16.htm